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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#284)
Thread started on 2/12/2006 19:23

DavePassingham

car transport

biodiesel

Sat Dec 2, 2006 12:17 pm

Dave Passingham wrote:

Is there anyone in CRAG like me that is using biodiesel and whose righteous feeling after realising how easy it was to reduce my carbon emissions by using it has now changed to a “am I getting an easy fix” feeling and is it really sustainable?

The problem is that I have heard that there is only 2 litres a year of waste cooking oil produced for every person in the country, which means that as I consume at the moment about 20 litres a week I am consuming approx 1000 other peoples waste oil… and there is obviously not going to be enough to go around.

Evidently the maximum sustainable level of biodiesel production from oil seed grown in this country is about 5% of current transport needs. Therefore if we all went over to biodiesel we would be importing most of it from countries that will be cutting down rainforest like mad to plant palm oil.

Should we rate it the same as other fuel or is there a way of attributing less carbon to it for the purposes of our calculations?

‹ Agenda for June 26 Meeting Journalist query ›
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#285)

written on 2/12/2006 19:24

andy_ross

andy_ross

Sat Dec 2, 2006 3:04 pm

Almuth Ernsting wrote:

I’d say zero carbon rating if you know you are using waste vegetable oil only (true, it won’t meet more than a fraction of demand). If the biodiesel contains palm oil, soy or sugar cane – avoid it. That is linked to absolutely enormous emissions from deforestation and (in the case of palm oil) peat and forest fires.

Oilseed rape – that’s a tricky question. Thanks to biodiesel, the EU are now a net importer of oilseed rape. We cannot meet the current demand from domestic sources. More biodiesel demand now means more overall vegetable oil imports, particularly soy and palm oil. By the way, the maximum 5% figure you quote is not for ‘sustainable’ production. It’s the maximum which, according to an EU-commissioned report, could be produced in Europe from first-generation biofuels, though (according to the same report) at a massive cost in terms of biodiversity losses, water eutrophication and acidification and other environmental impacts.

How do you know what you’re buying? Tough, too (unless it’s a local co-op and you can trace it exactly). Tesco will tell you on their website that their biodiesel comes from rapeseed oil only. It’s almost certainly 50% palm oil and soy. Took me days of research to find out.

If you want to know more, you can email me directly.

Regards,

Almuth

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#289)

written on 2/12/2006 19:26

duncanlaw

Sat Dec 2, 2006 11:38 pm

Duncan Law wrote:

In my own personal carbon calculating I count my Good Energy electricity as if it were fossil generated despite it being 100% renewable because it is not ‘roll-outable’ to everyone in the country due to severely limited capacity. I have just got to that capacity first. I do this in the interest of seeing just how much I could reduce emissions to if I were limited to fossil sources. Once we have worked out how much we really NEED we may be able to find renewable ways of sourcing it.

I think the same principle should apply to biodiesel. If not everyone can have it no one person should have the free advantage of having it just because they got to it first.

I’ve always wondered if we could encourage a sufficient increase in chip eating in the country to cover our vehicle demand. I think Monbiot calculates that we would have to put 5 times the total arable land in the UK down to oil crops to produce just the current road transport oil demand for this country. There is then the small matter of food to be considered. And Peak Food is on its way too.

There is no alternative to cutting down.

Duncan

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#290)

written on 3/12/2006 19:27

DavePassingham

Sun Dec 3, 2006 4:59 pm

Dave Passingham wrote:

I run on 100% biodiesel that is recycled oil (from London restauraunts I
think)... this is processed locally to me in Warwickshire, but I disagree
with Almuth that it should be zero rated because it is recycled. As Duncan
says there is only a limited amount of it and so we all need to reduce our
use now.
I think “externally” acquired renewable energy like biodiesel and
electricity from Good Energy are still a limited resource and should be
rationed, whereas “domestically” produced energy (from solar panels or
rooftop wind generators) will reduce our energy bill and therefore
automatically zero rate themselves.
Dave

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#292)

written on 3/12/2006 19:28

andy_ross

andy_ross

Sun Dec 3, 2006 6:34 pm

Almuth Ernsting wrote:

I actually do agree with concerns about zero-carbon rating any
renewable energy. I think there are two very different issues here:
Firstly, should we have low or zero-carbon rating for renewable
energies which are still of very limited supply? I think, in this
context, parallels between waste vegetable oil for fuel and Good
Energy electricity schemes are quite good. Both give you real carbon
savings, but supplies are limited and they should not be used as an
excuse not to cut our overall energy use. So yes, I was a bit quick
about mentioning zero-carbon rating in this context!

The second issue, however, is whether we should treat other types of
biofuels as renewable energy at all, or whether we should regard them
as being highly carbon-intensive, in some cases more carbon-intensive
than the fossil-fuel alternatives. Given the issues which I mentioned
in my previous email, I wouldn’t class most biofuels as being
renewable or low-carbon at all. In this sense the issues would be
quite different than, say, for Good Energy.

Almuth

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#293)

written on 4/12/2006 19:29

Pete Norty

Mon Dec 4, 2006 3:03 pm

Peter Norton wrote:

I’d agree with the zero rating for waste veg oil – as it is re-using a
waste product. When demand outstrips supply, we might have to think again,
but I’m sure there’s still plenty of chip oil being chucked away. The key
to bio-fuel is surely that it is a waste or co-product, as quite rightly we
don’t want to grow oil instead of food. In agricultural terms we might just
have to re-think our crop varieties to incorporate plants that give several
products – food, oil, and bio mass (now where’s those hemp seeds?)
What I don’t get is that all the talk of biomass electricity seems to be
about miscanthus grass power stations – but if they were wheat straw or
hemp straw powered, the grain or seed is available for food, and the straw
for fuel.

And of course, however we measure – its all about consuming
less….personally, getting 60% off my diesel total for using 60% waste veg
oil in my car isn’t going to make me sit back and not try and reduce
consumption – otherwise i wouldn’t be here.

P

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#294)

written on 4/12/2006 19:30

sleepynick

Mon Dec 4, 2006 8:50 pm

Nick Kemp wrote:

I also agree that biodiesel made from recycled waste oil should be zero rated. Although I understand the points that have been made about a sustainable level of biodiesel production and transport demands which clearly exceed this, we as a society are a long way from using all the waste oil that could be turned into biodiesel. This is a market that still needs stimulating and therefore it should be zero rated until we reach that point. The fact that the mileage/ fuel consumption would still be recorded would enable you to be informed as to to whether your car use was increasing or decreasing over time.

All the best,
Nick

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#295)

written on 6/12/2006 19:31

andy_ross

andy_ross

Wed Dec 6, 2006 5:25 pm

Andy Stevenson wrote:

Well…. My name has been mentioned on this CRAG group so I thought I’d have a look and see what’s going on.

I seem to have gained the status of a biodiesel expert. While I have spent a good while researching the subject I’m sure that there are people who know more than myself. But, if you please, here’s my t’penceworth.

There is a great deal of misinformation about biodiesel.

It is tempting to believe that you can reduce your own carbon footprint by using biodiesel in your own car. This would only be true if there was enough for everyone. There is not. It is not OK to drive as much as you like while using biodiesel. We need to offset fossil diesel use with biodiesel not supplement it.

Biodiesel should not be Zero rated. Waste vegetable oil is no longer exported or land filled. The national processing companies and brokers (PDM, Tony Stern etc) are complaining that they are losing business to small-scale biodiesel producers and there is competition among biodiesel producers for waste vegetable oil. There currently are sufficient incentives for biodiesel manufacture. It is now more competitive on price than fossil diesel. Zero rating would further encourage “blokes in sheds” to make their own biodiesel where the motive is financial rather than environmental. Blokes in sheds may dispose of the by-products irresponsibly. Manufactures should hold an IPPC and be monitored by the environment agency.

Biodiesel is not carbon neutral. It is better than fossil diesel but the energy balance is around 1:3 [a] that is that for every 3 units of energy in biodiesel one unit is used in getting it to the point of use.

The quantity of biofuel available as a percentage of fossil fuel used is very small. In 2005 UK biodiesel sales were 0.14% of fossil diesel sales [b]. UK government is aiming at 5% by 2011©. Now, the UK is a population dense country. We only have enough land to offset 5% of fossil diesel use [d]. Imports could improve things, but 9% of the world’s agricultural land would be required to offset 10% of transport fuel use [e]. There is simply not enough land available for biodiesel to make much difference.

The UK generates around 120,000 tonnes of Used cooking oil per year [f]. That works out as 232,000,000 litres of biodiesel.

In the 2005 census [g] the UK population was said to be 60,209,500.

232,000,000/60,209,500=2.19

So we do have about 2 litres each per year of waste cooking oil, which can be made into biodiesel. Your source was right is this sense. Not a fat lot eh?

We also have potentially 772800 tonnes of new oil that can be grown on set-aside land, which is another 850,080,000 litres.

So you can eventually have another 14 litres from that. A total of 16.2 litres

Of course there are the concerns for prudent arable husbandry for massive monoculture of oil seed crops, and the points George Monbiot makes about deforestation.

And remember that not everyone in the UK holders a current drivers licence. Currently there are 31.6 million driving licence holders. So your share goes up to 30.8 litres.

But this ignores all the diesel used by the haulage industry, Rail industry, shipping, buses, public service vehicles etc. In 2003 17.5 million tonnes (19 billion litres) of fossil diesel was sold in the UK [h]. I haven’t found figures for private vehicle consumption. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re share of biodiesel for personal use was back down to around 5 litres per year though.

Please do not make a special journey to fill your car with biodiesel. That will simply require that more miles are travelled and more CO2 emitted. By all means use it if you can but don’t go out of your way. Burning any fuel, whether fossil fuel or bio fuel will emit carbon dioxide. Better not to burn the fuel at all. Reserve biodiesel for public service use – buses, trains,

I don’t want to paint too dark a picture. Biodiesel is better than fossil diesel but we need to do more to mitigate the effects of climate change. There is a tendency to despair at the enormity and complexity of the challenge that we face. But please….please do not despair. This is a time for a call to action. There is much to do.

Give up your car.

Walk, Cycle

Start a car-sharing club like “hour car” in Hebden bridge

http://www.hourcar.org.uk/html/aboutus.htm

You know the answers. Your local council may not. Help them.

Sources: –

[a]

http://www.uidaho.edu/bioenergy/NewsReleases/Biodiesel Energy Balance_v2a.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20energy%20balance%22

[b] http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bullhydro

[c] http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads…

[d] http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/02-03/biofuels/quant_biodie…

[e] New Scientist 23-09-2006

[f] Peter Clery – former chair of BABFO http://www.biodiesel.co.uk/

[g] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6

[h] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/economic_trends/Oil_and_Gas.pdf

Cheers

Andy Stevenson

 
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Biodiesel (cragcentral message#302)

written on 9/12/2006 19:35

DavePassingham

Sat Dec 9, 2006 6:56 pm

Dave Passingham wrote:

I use biodiesel from recycled oil and only have to go 1 mile out of
my way to fill up, so I think I meet Andy’s criteria for being a
sustainable user of biodiesel. Even so, after reading the debate so
far I still do not think it should be zero rated. I think the point
is more than trivial only because I am assuming that we are trying to
work up a consistent way of carbon rationing within the group so that
we can “roll it out” to others as (hopefully!) they all start
agreeing with us that they should do something. If and when that
happens there will not be enough available biodiesel for everyone to
use and it will probably be best used for public transport.
Surely the imperative is that we all use less energy even if it is
from a sustainable source.
Dave

 
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Biodiesel not carbon-neutral nor eco-friendly

written on 23/4/2007 19:37

poppyfield

poppyfield

You make a great point about Tesco biodiesel not being European.

Your statement “biodiesel is not carbon neutral” is followed by an energy figure, not a reference to a Carbon-balance figure, so I decided to look into it a bit.

The paper you refer to is about Soya >
http://www.uidaho.edu/bioenergy/NewsReleases/Biodiesel%20Energy%20Balanc…
It concludes that Soya Biodiesel in the USA gives 2.77 times the energy needed to create and supply it.

In their section 9.1.2.3 they reckon the CO2 balance to be negative, i.e. it’s not C-neutral fuel. However the CO2 beyond that balance is about 21% of the fossil fuel carbon.

WHAT’S THE C-FOOTPRINT OF RAPESEED BIODIESEL?
I’m not sure that this is helpful when we try to weigh up European-grown rapeseed oil, because of the massive energy use and CO2 emmissions demanded from the rapeseed because of its hunger for Nitrogen (soya is not) and the even bigger amount of energy + C used in the esterification processing.

However if we’re actually importing more of the soya and palm biodiesel now, and if that’s the future trend, then the impact of this must be very relevant to anybody considering buying biodiesel.

I was interested to find:
www.defra.gov.uk/science/Project_Data/DocumentLibrary/NF0422/nf0422.pdf
They have a huge range of piecharts showing how wonderful biodiesel is, or could be, and only make a small mention of the fact that it’s not Carbon-neutral. By the way that’s at the end of section 2 ‘Fuel Characteristics’!

Waded trough it and still could not find a clear Carbon Balance figure (what ratio CO2 spent for that absorbed) for rapeseed biodiesel. Help appreciated! – J

 
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I’ve been using it in my

written on 18/6/2008 12:46

nick

I’ve been using it in my car for a while and recently figured i could heat my home with it as well it’s nearly the same as home heating oil which like diesel i mean you can dump diesel into your tank to heat your house if you need to so i am just double checking it’ll work, but im sure it will, i just got double glazing put on my windows so i dont run the heat as much as i need to in the winter and in the summer i have the AC’s running less. Biodiesel can work in a lot of places not just cars.

 
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